Ranger Ray on civilian reponse

I discussed the role of civilian response in the Texas Tower sniper case here.

One of the men who went up the Tower that day was officer Ramiro Martinez. In his memoirs he has some interesting things to say about the actions of the civilians in Austin.

I was and am still upset that more recognition has not been given to the citizens who pulled out their hunting rifles and returned the sniper's fire. The City of Austin and the State of Texas should be forever thankful and grateful to them because of the many lives they saved that day. The sniper did a lot of damage when he could fire freely, but when the armed citizens began to return fire the sniper had to take cover. He had to shoot out of the rainspouts and that limited his targets. I am grateful to the citizens because they made my job easier.

Cross posted at my other blog.

Michael Vick: And the big losers are...

hunters.

The groups leading the charge against Vick (PETA and the Humane Society) are also vehemently anti-hunting. So as they use Vick's trial as a platform, it also gives them credibility in their work to ban and restrict hunting.

Vick apologists play the same game. Listen to sports talk radio as they yak about the case and you will eventually hear someone float the idea that dogfighting is part of Vick's culture just as hunting is for some white players. Rarely does anyone argue the other side.


Here's an example of what is coming:

Morning Rush
By Michael Silver, Yahoo! Sports
August 13, 2007

The franchise quarterback had just suffered the most crushing defeat of his career and he needed to get away from it all. So the peeved passer headed to the backwoods of Mississippi, where he cleared his head by killing a defenseless animal.

Sorry, PETA, but the gun-toting quarterback in question was not Michael Vick. In fact, it was Peyton Manning , whose aim with a hunting rifle apparently is as true as it is with the ol' pigskin.

In January 2003, a couple days after the Indianapolis Colts ' 41-0 playoff annihilation by the New York Jets , Manning went to a 12,000-acre spread in central Mississippi owned by a family friend and got his mind right. As he told me later that year, "You're out there hunting for deer and ducks, just you and your gun. It's peaceful and totally quiet, no cell phones or anything like that. It's a good detox, the type of thing that gets your batteries re-charged."

In other words: Bad news, Bambi.

Good lessons even for us civilians

I found two very interesting articles on police survival and deadly force.

This one is filled with insight and lessons learned:

STAYING ALIVE ON THE JOB - A SURVIVAL GUIDE FOR PEACE OFFICERS

Not everything is applicable to civilians and some of the lessons require modifications. For example:

FBI’s annual “Officer Killed” summary, the statistics show that officers tend to die in close, not just at 7 yards but at 7 feet, and they tend to neutralize their attackers and survive unscathed as the distances increase.

Distance buys time. Waiting buys time. Time buys survival.

There are few “immutable laws” of police officer survival that go to 100% but this one reaches about 99%. Distance and time will generally favor the police officer that is the first to respond to a life-threatening crisis that involves armed criminals.

Very true, but sometimes hard to apply in self-defense situations. Often, trouble (i.e. the criminal) finds us; we do not have the option to wait for reinforcements or maintain a safe distance. Nonetheless, it is always smart to train with the idea that distance is (usually) our friend.*

This advice, however, is true for everyone:

W- Have a plan, Twining and Davis had a plan and they out gunned twice their number of highly trained lawman. The responding CHP officers didn’t…and they died.

A - Always Maintain the Advantage over the opponent. Gore and Frago initially had the tactically dominant position and officer survival experts who interviewed the surviving Bobby Davis believe that he and Twining would have surrendered if the two officers had not abandoned their tactically superior position.

This refers to the Newhall Incident when two ex-cons murdered four CHP officers. This defense trainer has a slide show that illustrates the events of that night.

I especially like it because he proves that you do not need fancy CGI software to make a useful training tool.

This article has a chilling glimpse into the mindset of one of the Newhall killers.

“I talked to him for quite a bit,” he recalls. According to Madden, Twining described for him the moments leading up to the shooting of Gore and Frago. The two cons had briefly contemplated surrendering as they were pulled over.

“He told me that he was looking in the side-view mirror and they were debating whether they were going to give up. And he looks in the mirror and he could see [Frago] with the shotgun as he walked up to the car and there was still tape around the slide, which means there was nothing happening,” Madden says. The tape around the slide meant the patrolman had not cycled a round into the chamber – he wasn’t locked and loaded.

For a criminal like Twining, that was like the scent of blood in the air.

“He told me the patrolman actually looked embarrassed, like he didn’t want to be there. So [Twining] just said ‘Fuck it’ and bailed out and started shooting.”

I've heard (and read) too many people talk about the wonderful intimidation power of their chosen weapons. "All i have to do is rack the slide on my shotgun and they will run away." "Once they see the size of the hole at the end of my .45 they'll give up."

It is hogwash and dangerous to boot. Unless you are prepared to use the gun, it is just a hunk of metal. Twining's confession shows that criminals can be frighteningly savvy in sizing up the threat. (Hint: they are seldom scared of a chunk of steel and wood.)

It also is important to remember that it only took 2 or 3 seconds for Twining and Davis to seize the tactical initiatve.

So mindset matters and so does focus.

* This is a problem i have with many "practical pistol" courses. I've seen many that require the shooter to move toward distant targets. Dumb idea. It makes for a good game but represents poor tactics.

School shootings and civilian response

I have some thoughts on my other blog.

Michael Bane says it all

Why I Never Fell in Love with the .40 S&W

He is not knocking the .40 S&W as a cartridge, just explaining why he prefers to carry what he does. This point can't be repeated enough:

Finally, "stopping power" is wildly secondary to bullet placement. Let me say that again...in a handgun round, bullet placement is everything. What I want in a carry gun is the absolute knowledge that I can deliver the shot with that gun and that load. The little .40s required more from me than the 9mms and the .45 ACPs.

Bane is in good company. I remember seeing an interview with Jeff Cooper in which he explained that the .45 ACP was not the be all and end all of defensive cartridges. {GASP!} He thought the .45 Colt and .455 Webley were also fine rounds. He shot the .45 ACP because that is what the 1911 shot. Like Bane it was platform first, cartridge second.

Me, i'm that way with the .357 mag. I don't like it's loud bark. But i recognize it's unmatched versatility. But the clincher is the S&W Model 19. It is the platform that i shoot best that can also be carried easily.

Be prepared

Here's a man who takes the injunction seriously.

Email to Shooting Times

For the first time that i can remember, i disagree with Sheriff Jim Wilson. He is a courteous gentleman so i understand why he apologized for his earlier comments about IPSC. (Although, calling it an "armed track meet" with " cute, pastel-colored pajama outfits" is pretty funny.) But he went too far when he wrote: "The majority voted, the majority rules, and life goes on."

If Col. Cooper and the guys at Big Bear believed that, we would all be shooting .38 Specials out of the FBI stance. Progress does not come from going along with the majority; it comes from cantankerous individuals who are willing to challenge conventional wisdom and figure out what really works.

The Zumbo Mess

The Smallest Minority has a nice response to Zumbo's idiotic statements.

Some see his comments as representative of hunters and see a faultline between hunters and other gun owners. I do not. I think Zumbo is representative only of cranky, arrogant, pampered gunwriters and has little in common with hunters as a whole.

The tip-off is in the column that started all this.

I must be living in a vacuum. The guides on our hunt tell me that the use of AR and AK rifles have a rapidly growing following among hunters, especially prairie dog hunters. I had no clue. Only once in my life have I ever seen anyone using one of these firearms.

Yes, he is living in a vacuum and that is why he saw so few ARs in the field. As a gunwriter he does much of his hunting on private guided hunts on land where the dirty masses never intrude.

Zumbo tried to wrap himself in the colors of "traditional hunting" and stand as a defender of the right and the true spirit of the hunt. In truth, he is closer to being one of the "tourists with rifles" who populate the gun and hunting rags.

Shot show

I'm late noting this but Gun Blast has a bunch of great pictures from the SHOT show.

Good idea in theory

Mossberg has an interesting new package out for their model 500

JIC: Just in Case

My reservations are two-fold. First, i don't like the pistol-grip only configuration. It's not a good configuration for effective shooting especially if the user practices very little with the gun.

Second, i'd like to know more about the associated knives and hardware. There is a lot of crap out there masquerading as heavy-duty multi-tools or "tactical" knives.

Don't' be French

The German victory in France in 1940 is one of the most decisive campaigns in military history. In six weeks, the Blitzkrieg re-ordered the balance of power in Europe.

The striking thing about the German victory is that the defeated Western allies enjoyed both a qualitative and quantitative superiority in men, tanks, guns, and planes. The Germans won because they had superior doctrine and training.

The French expected to fight methodical battles in which their material advantages would blunt the German offensive and roll back the invader. The Germans were able- through superior strategy and initiative- to disrupt the French plans and win operational victories that paralyzed the French High Command.

I have to admit that I hear French accents in a lot of self-defense advice on the web and in the gun rags. There is an obsessive focus on the material-what bullet/caliber works 'best', shotgun versus AR15-and little attention to the decisive factors-mindset, planning, practice.

I mean, a tactical shotgun is great, but how do you use it when you have to answer the door late at night? What's the best way to carry a 1911 so that you can deploy it in the event of a carjacking? (Is it even possible to get it into play with seat belts on?)

An effective personal defense strategy should not begin with the abstract evaluation of various weapons, calibers, or loads. Rather, it should start with an honest risk assessment: what are the likely dangers, what weapon is best suited to meet them, what are the best actions to counter those dangers if they arise?

There is one other applicable lesson from this historical period. Some of the propagandists for rearmament actually ended up strengthening the forces of appeasement. They overstated the might of Hitler and claimed that only massive rearmament could let the French and British catch-up. This helped create a sense of resignation and hopelessness that Hitler exploited in 1937-39.

I wonder how many newbies are dissuaded from buying a personal defense firearm because of the advice they receive from pixilated Rambos. Here is a man or woman with limited experience with firearms who is pondering whether to take that first, crucial step. When they ask a simple question, they get flooded with the macho posturing that made the internet famous.

"You need a tactical shotgun, and an AK-47. A high-capacity .40 S&W and a back-up subcompact that uses the same magazines. Yeah, always have four spare magazines with you at all times. Plus two for the AK. Get a tactical vest. Oh, and a bowie knife, an Akita, and a high-end home alarm system…"

I wonder how many potential new shooters just throw up their hands and do nothing?

That's sad because the 80/20 rule applies in the defense realm as it does in most aspects of life. Even worse, to return to my first point, this obsession with ordnance-lots and lots of hardware-ignores the crucial lessons of 1940.

Cold facts about "stopping power"

Go read Coyote at the Dog Show:

It seems that we Americans have a real predisposition for substituting technology for skill. If 6 shots from a .38 won't do the job, perhaps 18 shots from a high-capacity 9mm will make 'glockamole' out of 'em, eh? Problem is, even a shot from a highpowered rifle that turns everything in the chest cavity into something resembling that red jello and whipped cream stuff your great aunt Agnes brought to Thanksgiving dinner often will not put a target down immediately.

See also:

Training to survive

In Defense of the 38 Special

Arming teachers

Some thoughts on my other blog.

Jeff Cooper


Here’s a remarkably good obituary from the LA Times.

I see some similarities between Cooper and another giant who recently passed-- Peter Drucker.

Both were giants and pioneers in their specialized fields. Each brought a broad, liberal education to a field dominated by technocrats and faddists. Both could be cranky and did not suffer fools for the sake of bonhomie.

To me the most striking think is that both were frequently ignored by their biggest fans.

Our current gun rags hype an endless stream of new calibers, new models, new add-ons. I’m sure most of them will do stories on Jeff Cooper in the coming months. Yet, Cooper was acidly skeptical of the hot new things. He wondered why any hunter needed more than two or three rifles. With a 30-06 plus something for the big stuff the North American was set. Add a really big bore if you hunted Africa and you and your grandson were set for life.

A lot of the gear that gets advertised is designed for long shotsmagnums, big scopes, range finders. Cooper, OTOH, always emphasized that the mark of a hunter was how close he got before pulling the trigger.

Any fool can send a bullet flying at a deer standing 400 yards away. It takes skill to get close to the deer and take a 75 yard shot.

Jeff Cooper, RIP

Col. Jeff Cooper...A Giant Has Fallen

Serious thinking about home defense

Two great posts at To which i replied. The discussion continues at South Park Pundit.

41 Mag: Bad timing?

Clint Smith (Thunder Ranch) offeres some interesting perspectives on the history of the .41 magnum and its failure in the police market.

The .41 Mag: if only we could do it over

See also:

The Wrong Compromise

Carnival

A great edition of the Carnival of Cordite.

Jerry Ahern talks sense

However, one can safely assume that someone who has been shot with a .22 Magnum is not going to be jumping about merrily proclaiming how healthy he feels. I believe it was the late Bill Jordan -- a man with whom I was privileged to interact on several occasions -- who said that a hit with a .22 was better than a miss with a .44 Magnum. I would append that as follows: a hit with a .22 Magnum you have in your pocket is better than no hit at all because your heavier caliber pistol was too big to carry and you are unarmed.

RTWT.

Handgun cartridges in carbines

Some interesting performance data here at Leverguns.

Speaking of Rangers and their guns

When Frank Hamer was hunting down Bonnie and Clyde his long gun was a Remington Model 8 semi-auto in the .35 Remington. He believed the old brushbuster was superior to a Tommygun and the .45 ACP. See why here.

Highly recommended


One Ranger: A Memoir

I was especially interested in Jackson's discussion of the firearms he carried as he worked the border region of Texas. Since he had no SWAT team on call, his trunk was a rolling gunsafe-- riot gun, AR-18, hundreds of rounds of ammo. But the rifle he carried close at hand in the passenger compartment was a Model 94 in 30-30.

Handguns and long guns

Good post on the subject at Hell in a handbasket.

Shocking

The Chicago Police Department’s in-service firearm training is no small scandal.
The department used to mandate officer’s firearm qualification quarterly. Today
the officers fire a paltry 30 rounds only once a year.

Read more at CRIME, GUNS, AND VIDEO TAPE

More good sense on self defense

Hell in a Handbasket has it.

I left a comment over at James's place and want to expand a little. I wrote "If i could add one point it is this: the "style" as you put it should also reflect an honest assessment of what sort of risks one faces. No point developing the skills if they are with a weapon inappropriate to the most likely SHTF scenario."

What i should have added is this: The biggest risk a civilian faces is not that they will be outgunned. It is that they will be ungunned. It is great to have a tuned AR-15 and being able to nail 20 out of 20 steel plates at a hundred yards in 22 seconds. But that will do you no good when you step out of your car in a dark drive-way at 11.00 pm on a night when some junkie has decided he needs your ride and your wallet.

Just found this

Why Everyone Needs a Gun

It relates two examples of armed self defense against two crazed, mentally unbalanced criminals. But this part was the clincher:

In each case, an irrational attacker who came face to face with a gun suddenly developed a fine-tuned sense of reality, culminating in lives being saved.

Training to survive

James Rummel has a post up that should be read by everyone interested in personal defense.

Avoid the Bucket

James’s example is not an isolated case. Most of the changes in police procedure and equipment are fueled by calamity. It takes a Newhall Incident, an FBI-Miami shootout, or a North Hollywood robbery before the powers that be will accept change.

There is a big downside to this. In the aftermath of a tragedy, no one wants to blame the victim. The public after-action reports and resulting policy debates will, therefore, focus more on technology and less on tactics. The training recommendations can focus on the wrong elements because it addresses "safe" subjects and not the factors that really determine life and death.

Ross Seyfried—hunter, guide, gun writer, and former IPSC champion—has a phrase for one facet of the problem:" buying skill." Instead of practicing their long-range shooting, hunters buy "flat shooting" magnums. High capacity magazines can be a similar trap. Seyfried again: "you can’t miss fast enough" to make up for poor accuracy. In a worst case scenario, hi-caps just delay the moment of truth.

James also provides some recommendations that need to be taken heart and put into practice by anyone who is serious about civilian CQC.

My one quibble is ISPC/IDPA/CAS. They can be great training—if they are approached as practice. If you try to win (or even just emulate the winners) they teach dangerous lessons. (I grit my teeth every time I watch a shotgun stage at a CAS match. What sane individual would operate a pump like that if their life was on the line?)

Many years ago I read an article that made a good point about the value of IPSC, personal defense, and mind-set. Three competitors were eating in a restaurant after the match. Two of them were serious IPSC shooters and had finished high in the standings. Thee third was a cop who had finished well back in the pack. The subject of concealed carry came up. One of the shooters was unarmed. His tricked out race gun was locked in the trunk of his car outside. So was the competition gun of the other IPSC demi-god. After showing his stuff with a custom .45, he stowed it away and carried a J-frame .38 Spl. The cop was carrying the same service auto he carried every day—the same pistol he shot the match with.

Even though he had the worst score at the match, the cop was the only one of the three who was really benefiting from the practice and competition.

James offers up a lot of good advice on his site. I really like his emphasis on dry-firing practice and shooting prone or from a chair. Only the lucky get to use the standing Weaver when the SHTF.

Now, since this is a blog, I’ll throw in my two cents.

Where possible, add moving targets. They don’t have to be complicated or expensive. Balloons bobbing in the breeze are a neat wrinkle when paper targets get boring.

Practice dealing with unexpected malfunctions. Even when shooting multiple targets, it is easy to fall into a rut. Bang, bang [shift] bang, bang, [shift] bang, bang. Reload.

Put some snap caps into the mix and it changes the experience. Bang, bang, [shift] bang, click, [shi….,damn, clear] bang, [shift] bang, bang.

This is so wrong

Mark Wahlberg is no Bob the Nailer

Just an opinion

This may be the most pointlessly ugly gun on the market.

Lever gun versus AR

Michael Bane takes the cowboy gun. Smart choice.

SHOT Show 2006

Dozens of great pictures over at Gun Blast

Of course

i agree.

Reasons I Like a J Frame in My Pocket

Found thanks to the Carnival of Cordite

"Disconcerting Alacrity"

We recently ran across a statement attributed to an old Western sheriff which fills us with delight. He stated that he wished his deputies to respond to the threat of lethal violence with 'disconcerting alacrity'. What a great phrase! For years I have taught mind set and defensive tactics to thousands of students when almost everything I sought to impart could have been included in exhortation to disconcerting alacrity.

Jeff Cooper, Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip 2, p. 544

Weathering a disaster

Paco Kelly--SURVIVAL: A STATE OF MIND

Scott Chaffin--Be Prepared

Two good post-Katrina reflections


LESSONS FROM NEW ORLEANS

A Good Morning to Eat Crow

I posted some of my own thoughts on my other blog.

I whole-heartedly agree with Michael Bane's preference for a "cowboy" levergun instead of something paramilitary.

This is how it should be done

Even though she disses my beloved 38 special and is leaning against revolvers, i still admire the methodical way she is testing handguns before buying.

"COUNTER TERRORISM FOR EVERYMAN"

This is well worth reading

COUNTER TERRORISM FOR EVERYMAN

Some gun-people scoff at civilian counter terrorist training, thinking such tactics are "wishful thinking". I would point out three things to them: One - The only difference between the September 11th planes was that passengers on Flight 93 chose to act. I suspect that had the acted sooner, they may have saved the plane. Two – Unless you act, your life is in the hands of the errorists and we know their plans are for you, you will most definitely be killed. Three – Rescue by the authorities is a pie-in-the-sky feel good notion that will be of little help when your throat gets slashed. Bottom line - You have nothing to lose.

This is interesting

S&W has two new models out in .41 mag. The Airlite model is pricey, but i can't think of a better lightweight revolver (if you handload).

I wonder if Smith's interest in the .41 might prod some ammo company into creating a moderate velocity loading for the lightweight revolvers?

Of course i think this is a great article

Smith and Wesson’s Best Pistol

If ever there were a revolver of excellent, almost perfect ergonomics, it is the Smith and Wesson Model 19 Combat Magnum. This revolver is well balanced and offers more power per ounce than practically any other handgun.

Canival of Cordite

Edition #13 is now up at Resistance is Futile.

41 Special

here's a nice write-up on the .41 Special wildcat.

Most Needed Revolver Wildcat?

There is a niche for this round. It would be perfect in the Taurus Tracker. Plus it would be a great practice round for the big .41 mag revolvers.

Since i am on a .41 caliber jag, Ruger and Smith should offer a 4-inch barrel version of the .41. The GP100 would be a nice platform for a 5-shot model and Smith already offers their Mountain Gun in .44 Mag and .45 Colt.

More on the .41 mag

The Wrong Compromise

The .41 Magnum - Sundays Child


Heavy Bullets in the .41 Magnum

Ouch


It's going to be a lot tougher getting doe licenses in PA this year. The Game Commission dropped the allocation in most wildlife management areas. The place i hunt went from 75,000 to 53,000.

Although, to be honest, i could have skipped the doe permit the last three years and it would have made no difference. The only takeable does i've seen have all been early on the first day and i've passed on the shots. I just can't bring myself to take a doe that early in the season and cut everyone's chances at a buck on the best day to find horns.

Good reading

The latest Carnival of Cordite is here. Some great blogging on guns and shooting.

1911 and CCW

I love the 1911. But i have to agree with Christopher A. Lee that it is not the best choice for CCW most of the time. He lays out the reasons here.

Handguns cartridges in carbines

Leverguns has some velocity comparisons between handguns and rifles in the same caliber. If you're a revolver guy, it gives another reason for choosing a magnum and levergun over a semi-auto.

The 9mm rarely gains more than 100 fps out of a long barrel. Revolver rounds gain much more. Check out the 125gr. Gold Dot loading from Buffolo Bore : 1603 fps out of a four inch revolver and 2298 fps out of a carbine.


I posted about that before here.

Remington 7615

Neat, neat idea. Pump action rifle (based on the 870 shotgun), takes AR-15 magazines, .223 cartridge. Suddenly, i'm interested. Michael Bane tried one out at Gunsite.

The anti-gun male

I found this over at the Carnival of Cordite, Week Four.

The Anti Gun Male - Julia Gorin

Let's be honest. He's scared of the thing. That's understandable--so am I. But as a girl I have the luxury of being able to admit it. I don't have to masquerade squeamishness as grand principle--in the interest of mankind, no less.

A man does. He has to say things like "One Taniqua Hall is one too many," as a New York radio talk show host did in referring to the 9-year old New York girl who was accidentally shot last year by her 12-year old cousin playing with his uncle's gun.

But the truth is he desperately needs Taniqua Hall, just like he needs as many Columbines and Santees as can be mustered, until they spell an end to the Second Amendment. And not for the benefit of the masses, but for the benefit of his self-esteem.

He often accuses men with guns of "compensating for something." The truth is quite the reverse. After all, how is he supposed to feel knowing there are men out there who aren't intimidated by the big bad inanimate villain? How is he to feel in the face of adolescent boys who have used the family gun effectively to defend the family from an armed intruder? So if he can't touch a gun, he doesn't want other men to be able to either. And to achieve his ends, he'll use the only weapon he knows how to manipulate: the law.

Blog roll addititions

I've added a couple of new blogs i just found:

Wadcutter

Pennsylvania hunt fish shoot

Both are well worth checking out.

Civilian response

Kim du Toit and Michael Bane both have useful things to say about the recent shootings in Tyler, Texas.

Mech-Tech CCU

Kim du Toit takes a look at this carbine conversion for Glocks and 1911s. It's a really interesting piece of equipment and may be the best reason out there for buying a Glock.

Furture Terrorism

The cover story in the January/February Atlantic Monthly is piece of "future history" by Richard Clarke that sketches the next five years of the War on Terror. He does not paint a pretty picture. His worst-case scenario has a series of devastating attacks on America- suicide bombers, mass shootings, strikes with biological and nuclear weapons. After each assault, the economy sinks a little lower and we sacrifice a few more civil liberties.

Part of his nightmare scenario for future terrorist attacks is the deployment of suicide teams to suburban malls where they enact mega-Columbines. Being a good Beltway/Kennedy School-- type, he simply ignores any civilian response-- even in states like Texas and Virginia.

As Michael Bane notes:

One thing Clarke totally disregards is the deterent effect of an armed populace. Yeah, yeah...I can already hear liberals laughing. But let's take the Israeli experience, where armed civilians stopping terrorists' strikes has become almost commonplace.

See further analysis here.

Knives

Interesting discussion of everyday folders over at Geek with a .45.

FWIW, i've been carrying a CRKT M16-10K for almost a year and wouldn't trade it for anything.

Too close is not very close

THE 21 FOOT RULE .....REVISITED

In the early eighties, a young police officer named Dennis Teuller wrote an article for Chuck Taylor's Magazine titled "How Close is Too Close?". In the ground breaking article, Officer Teuller compared the time frames in which an adequately trained officer could draw and fire an accurate shot, and the time frame in which an able-bodied man armed with a contact weapon could cross a seven yard distance. The time was remarkably similar - 1.5 seconds for each.

Gun Blog

Michael Bane hosts the Outdoor Channel's "Shooting Gallery. I just ran across his blog. Well worth checking out.

First gun redux

An interesting discussion on the best first handgun over at sandcastles and cubicles (esp. the comments). I have nothing to contribute because the criteria-- no revolvers-- pretty much rules out my recommendations:

In Defense of the 38 Special

First Handgun

The 41 Mag

The guys at Leverguns have posted three articles on the forgotten magngum


The .41 Magnum - Sundays Child

Heavy Bullets in the .41 Magnum

.41 Magnum Loading Data

See also:

The Wrong Compromise

I'm For Bush

I generally avoid politics on this blog. (I save that for here.) Most of the bloggers on my blogroll do it better than me, so why be a pale imitation?

But there is an election coming up, and it is important t gun owners and hunters. That's why I'm voting for Bush. Kerry would be a disaster for the Second Amendment.

What kind of judges would he appoint, especially to the Supreme Court?

Remember how Clinton used his HUD apparatus in an attempt to sue gun-makers into submission? Any doubt that Kerry, ambulance-chaser Edwards, and their buddies will do the same?

The AWB has died quietly. Imagine what wold have happened if Sarah Brady had use of the bully pulpit and if Kerry was twisting arms and horse-trading to get it renewed. Diane Feinstein might be crowing about her victory over "the dark forces of the NRA."

Bush has been solid, if not spectacular. Kerry would be far, far worse.

.357 Carbine

Gunblast puts the Winchester 94 Ranger through its paces. Even with a 16" barrel they get 2000 fps with 125 grain handloads. And 1450 with 38 Special 125 gr. jacketed bullets.

Attention Weapons Experts

James over at Hell in a Handbasket is running a little contest. Can you identify the RPG?

Is this the best value on the pistol market?

EAA's Witness is a version of the famed CZ-75 auto. It is available in all the standard chamberings (9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP). It lists for less than $500 and my local dealer has the steel version in .40 S&W for just $400.

The price is only half the value equation. What really sets the Witness apart is their caliber conversion kits. Switch your .40 to 10mm for a couple of hundred dollars. Have a.45 ACP, 10mm, and .38 Super for the price of a single Sig or Kimber.

I like the conversion idea for a couple of reasons. First, it is the only inexpensive way to shoot .38 Super. Second, it is a solution to the problem of practice versus gun life with the 10mm. The 10mm is loaded to such high pressures that it is hard on guns. (It also beats you up at the range.) With the Witness you can practice with 9mm or .40 S&W using exactly the same gun you carry in 10mm. That's neat and efficient.

Never expected to read this

In the August Handloader Gil Sengal traces the history of the .357 magnum. He writes about Elmer Keith's experiments with hotrodding the 38 Spl. and the problems he encountered. One of Keith's loads tested at 42,000 psi when normal loads for that powder usually ran 14-18,000 psi. He quotes Elmer as writing " I knew of several Officer Models Colts that [this load] had wrecked."

So far, just your typical gun rag article and the obligatory nod to old EK's irascibility. But it was Sengal's comment that stopped me in my tracks.

"Publishing such loads is just plain criminal"

That is what i like about Handloader and Rifle. They protect no sacred cows.

Conundrum

"Think of it always; speak of it never."

That was how Leon Gambetta wanted France to approach the lost provinces of Alsace and Lorraine after 1871. In French hearts and French minds, the matter was not closed. But he knew that hot talk would only complicate French diplomacy and possibly provoke another war with Germany-- a war she could not win in the 1870s.

The quote came to mind while i was pondering the "Terror in the Skies" mini-controversy. But it really fits with the whole question of citizen response in a time of terror.

We are fooling ourselves to think that our intelligence can ever be good enough to disrupt every terrorist threat before they get underway. We need good ground-level police work and community involvement.

I firmly believe that we citizens have a role to play in protecting ourselves and our neighbors. That is true for the terrorist threat as well as conventional street crime. It seems like an eminently bloggable subject and the sort of thing where sharing information is useful.

But it is clear that the prevailing PC mindset of the monopoly press will misconstrue and willfully misinterpret such actions. Any attempt to promote vigilance is liable to be labeled domestic spying. (Can't you hear Krugman and Dowd chanting "American Gestopo" and "Ashcroft's Stasi"? Can you hear the glee?) And any discussion of armed citizens and the threat will produce superheated warnings about vigilantes and mob rule.

Annie Jacobson is being subjected to the same treatment as Eunice Stone. They are branded dumb, hysterical, racist women making much ado about absolutely nothing. Very few are asking if pillorying them will have a "chilling effect" on others who will become less willing to come forward when their suspicions are triggered.

"If all else fails, I will retreat up the valley of Virginia, plant my flag on the Blue Ridge, rally around the Scotch-Irish of that region and make my last stand for liberty amongst a people who will never submit to British tyranny whilst there is a man left to draw a trigger."
George Washington at Valley Forge.


Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America

It's been a long wait

Backroads Blog notes that Glock is taking pre-orders on high-cap magazines now that the AWB is about to expire.

I've actually held off buying a new pistol for just this reason. I expect that some makers are going to offer high-caps while others will give in to political pressure and stick to the 10 rd. maximum. No point plunking down good money for one of those.

38 Loads

The June Guns and Ammo tests the new Speer 38+P 135 gr. Gold Dot. It looks like it works as advertised. From a two-inch Model 49, it generates 878 fps. That compares to 760 fps for the Winchester 158 SWCHP and 810 fps for the Black Hills 125 JHP.

Mike from Feces Flinging Monkey emails "I've often wondered if the solution here is to use really heavy bullets and modest powder charges - flatpoints of 200 grains or more, lots of dwell time in the barrel to pick up kinetic energy, and lots of sectional density for deep penetration."

I've wondered the same thing myself. The Brits moved from a 265 grain .455 military loading to a 200 grain .357 loading (the 38 S&W) and claimed to see no difference in effectiveness. Given their colonial activities and the troubles in Ireland, the British army had plenty of CQC experience when they made the change.

I've played around with a similar loading for the 38 SPL. They have much less muzzle blast than .357 rounds andm thus, are more controllable. Penetration at close range should be no problem given their sectional density.

Congratulations!

Jeff at Alphecca got picked as the "Website we love" in the summer issue of Outdoor Life. Always good to see a blogger get credit for their hard work.

Losing Power: .38s in .357s

Looking through Ken Waters's Pet Loads, i ran across some test results that are worth noting.

When he fired some .38 Spl +P loads through a .357 cylinder, he actually lost around 70 fps compared to the velocity obtained with a .38 Spl cylinder.

In some ways that's no big deal. Even a standard .38 Spl. will get the job done for CCW or home defense. But it does affect the load choice if 38 +P rounds are carried in a .357 revolver for defensive purposes.

The 125 grain JHP is a legendary load in the .357. It is a consistent stopper. Velocities can exceed 1600 fps in an 8" barrel. It takes a tough bullet to ensure adequate penetration at those speeds. Many 125 JHP loads for the 38 +P load go about 975 fps from a 4" barrel and so will barely break 900 fps if fired from a .357 cylinder.

A tough 125 JHP which gives good performance at 1600 fps probably won't expand much at 900 fps. If .38 +P load uses the same bullet as the .357, you are really just shooting a 125 grain round nose.

At the same time, the .38 loads are attractive defensive loads because they have less muzzle flash and muzzle blast than the magnum. This matters in the dark, confined spaces where defensive shootings take place.

There are two solutions. One is to choose .38 +P loads that were specifically developed for snubbies (like the new Gold Dot 135 JHP). Another is to use a 158 grain LSWC which does not depend on expansion to be effective.

This performance is also an excuse to save money. If you know you are going to use 38 +P rounds as your primary defense load, you can buy a 38 Spl. revolver instead of a .357 magnum. A good used Ruger or S&W 38 will cost half the price of a new .357 and will often be $50-$100 less than a used magnum. That sounds like a deal to me-- spend less, get better performance.

Perfectly Understandable

I think Kevin might be drooling. But he has good reason to.

First Gun

Jeff Soyer has a good discussion on first guns. Jeff is a really smart guy because i agree with everyone of his recommendations.....

One Gun Conundrum--results

The results are now up here.

No surprises-- .308 rifles, 1911s, and Ford trucks.

I see i forgot to mention my vehicle choice-- GMC Sonoma extended cab.

Smith & Wesson Model 25 .45 Colt Mountain Gun

Nice write-up on this little beauty over at Gunblast.

One Gun Conundrum

Kim du Toit is running an interesting survey/ thought experiment: If you could only have one rifle and one handgun what would they be?

Les Jones has already given his picks here.

For me, it depends on the cause of the limits. If it is a long-term lifestyle choice (money, no room for a gun safe, local regulation) then i want a S&W Model 19 in .357 Mag and a Ruger Model 77 Compact in .260 Remington.

I wrote about the 19's claim to the status of finest all-round, all-round here and the advantages of the revolver here and here . Plus, since i only have one, I want the flexibility the 38/357 combo gives me.

The Ruger compact will handle almost any sort of hunting. Short and light, it is a better choice for woods hunting than a 24" Model 70 in .300 Win. It is nicer to carry up and down rocky slopes for mountain hunting. At the same time, it is a better long-range proposition than a Model 94 in 30-30.

And the .260 may be the best all-purpose round for the US (along with it's ballistic twin the 6.5x55 Swede). Not my opinion, John Barsness just wrote that in Rifle or Handloader.

OTOH- if this problem is a matter of the SHTF and I had to grab two guns and their ammo as I headed out the door to an undisclosed secure location-- then I would change my choices to:

Ruger Redhawk (5.5" bbl) in 41 Mag and Marlin 1894 in 41 Mag.

I want ammo compatibility. Full power 41 mag loads have all the advantages of the .357 with 50% more bullet weight as a kicker. The heavier Redhawk dampens the recoil so that it shoots as soft as the model 19 with magnum rounds. Plus, I have a bunch of mid-range loads for it that makes it a pussycat while delivering more oomph than standard 45 ACP. But as discussed here, the mid-range loads hit magnum velocity out of the carbine.

Plus, the revolver is a Ruger so it is tough and reliable.

How great was John Browning?


Between 1885 and 1899 EVERY new model introduced by Winchester was a Browning design. And they only went into production with about a quarter of the designs they bought from him.

When it came to firearms, Browning was a one man Bell Labs.

Browning BLR in .358 Win.

That's what their talking about over at Gunblast. Just the thing for someone looking for a lever that shoots flatter than a 45/70 and hits harder than a 30-30.

Bersa .380 Thunder

Hell in a Handbasket tried one out on range and gives us a report.

If money is tight and you are looking for a very compact pistol, it is a value that is hard to beat.

What I Saw at the NRA Convention

Four acres of booths is a lot of stuff to see. Most of the booths were packed with neat things to see and add to the wish list. There were even celebrities-- Gen. Craig Boddington, Tom Knapp, Ted Nugent, and Col. Jeff Cooper.

The four-inch S&W .500 Mag is a beast. I can't imagine packing it on my hip or shooting it, but then, I don't share the trails with big bears.

The Navy Arms Schofield is a cool revolver, but is not nearly as handy as a Ruger Vaquero. Maybe the triumph of the Colt SAA was an early victory for ergonomics.

The S&W 625 Mountain Gun in 45 Long Colt is a pure delight in the hand. I could easily imagine packing it all day long in the field.

S&W's new 22 Mag snubby is a gem.

Henry is bringing out their Big Boy in 45 Colt. The Big Boy is one slick little leveraction and the brass receiver is eye-catching. (Hmm, a Big Boy in the gun rack and a 625 on the hip, I could be the very model of a PA cowboy for the 21st century....)

EAA and Stoeger shotguns are nicely balanced and are a steal-- O/U and S/S shotguns for well under $500. Remington is also bringing out a value priced line of shotguns. (I think they are called Spartan Arms by Remington.)

Remington was also promoting a new line of ammunition-- Managed Recoil Loads. They claim they can make a .270 Win. kick like a .243. Essentially, they are dropping the bullet weight and velocity. Nice idea for people who don't handload.

The Secret Service by Eagle Grips are the best grips i've seen/handled for a J-frame snubby.

I checked out every .380 i could find. Not one-- not even the Walther PPK/S or the Sig 232-- made me want to switch from the J-frame.

As per usual, there was nothing new for us .41 Mag fans.

Colt was there with a full array of handguns-- Pythons, SAAs, and 1911s. Glad to see that they are back in the civilian market.

Colt, Kimber, and Firestorm all had 1911s in 38 Super.

The business end of a 4-bore elephant gun looks like it belongs on a field piece the Brits would have taken on a punitive expedition against a wayward colony. I can't imagine shooting it from the shoulder.

Judging by the number of models on display, we will soon reach a time when everyone will offer a version of the 1911.

This is the first NRA convention/exhibit that i've been to. It was well worth driving a couple hours to get to.

Reminder

I do most of my blogging here. Right now I am in the middle of a series of posts on the pre-9-11 intelligence failures.

Speaking of James

A friend of his could use your help. (Hey, just an email, no money required.) Stop over and get the whole story here.

"WHEELING DOWN THE YEARS"

James Rummel talks about his experience teaching a CCW class this weekend. I was struck by the fact that all of the students (many of them new shooters) felt that the S&W 10 was the easiest to shoot.

It is always good to get real world evidence on these things. One of my first posts here was on the wheelgun as personal protection option. James's students illustrate the point again. Starting out, revolvers are easier to come up to speed with.

Also, the Model 19 i rave about below is really just a Model 10 adapted to handle the .357 Mag. The 10/19 series from Smith and Wesson represent a highpoint in gun design.

But make sure you check out the rest of James's blog. He always writes on interesting things. And his shooting posts are always level-headed.

Snubby Ammo

The June Combat Handguns has a test of a new .38 Special load designed especially for snubbies. It is a 135 grain Gold Dot from Speer.

In their tests, it generated 870 fps from a 2" barrel. It showed expansion to more than .57" in gelatin while still delivering good penetration and did so even when fired through denim.

This looks like a winner. Feeding a snub-nosed pistol presents requires careful ammo selection. The short barrel can cut velocity drastically which in turn reduces the effectiveness of many hollowpoint loadings. It looks as if the guys at Speer have come up with a HP that expands reliably at moderate velocities and a powder that can deliver the necessary speed from even a short barrel.

Definitely something i plan to check out.

Finest All-round All-round

In the March/April American Handgunner, Clint Smith has an interesting range test. He put six guns (3 autos, 3 revolvers) through their paces at ranges out to 75 yards. The neat part was that they ranged in size from a Colt Agent snubby to a S&W 29 in 44 mag and included basic pistols like the Glock 17 and semi-custom jobs like a Thunder Ranch 1911 from Les Baer.

Two things stand out. First, the small guns did surprisingly well at 25 yards. The Agent and Springfield Micro Compact shot 3" groups while the 4 inch S&W 19 held to 1.75" to lead the pack.

The other thing was that the S&W 19 was the best at all distances. It held to 6" at 75 yards. It's big brother (Model 29) came in at 10" while the TR 1911 did 8". The 1911 was Smith's favorite and it was designed to his specifications. Yet the 19 outshot it at long range.

Over time, i've come to believe that the Model 19 is the best all-round handgun for the largest number of people. You get the advantage of 38 SPL/357 Mag ammo. It's a nicer carry gun than N-frames or Rugers, especially if you want to carry it concealed. The workmanship is superb and gives you the smoothest DA trigger i've ever experienced. Smooth trigger=better accuracy, especially at long range.

The .357 is also a better long-range choice than any auto-loading round. Mid-range trajectory (100 yds.) for 125 Speer Gold Dot is only 2.8" while the 45 ACP 230 grain Gold Dot comes in at 6.9". In fact, even standard pressure 38 Specials shoot flatter than the 45 ACP in 230 grain loads.

Just Wondering

Why hasn't anyone tried a sabot-round in a 45-70 or other big-bore? With shotguns and muzzle-loaders you get a better trajectory and increased down-range performance with this set-up. Not only do you get higher muzzle velocity, but the smaller caliber bullet has a much better ballistic coefficient so it retains energy better. Plus, you could have a better sectional density.

More on O'Conner

One thing that i think O'Conner can be criticized for his failure to distinguish between premium and conventional bullets. He was an early adopter of Nosler Partitions and they obviously served him well. However, in his writing, he tended to lump these premium handloads with conventional commercial rounds.

There is a big difference in performance between a 130 grain Partition and 130 grain Silvertip. Yet i am sure that thousands of people took to the field with the Winchester round and wondered why they couldn't duplicate J O'C's results on elk or moose.

Passivity and Fear

That's what radiates from the stories about the recent gang-rape at Rutgers University. (Examples here and here.)

Police are patrolling, lighting is being checked-- there was even a candle-light vigil. Exactly the kind of thing that deters thugs.

Generally speaking, i hate the word "sheeple". But this attitude (especially from journalists) comes mighty close.

Let's You and Him Fight

Shortly after i read Coyote at the Dog Show on Elmer Keith, i picked up a copy of Gun World. Lo and Behold, Jan Libourel touches on the same subject, but from a different perspective.

It may be worth noting that Jack O'Conner killed 10 grizzlies with a 30-06 and two more with a .270 and never came to harm. (This, by the way, is 10 more grizzlies than his arch rival Elmer Keith ever killed.)

Libourel also makes an interesting point about the two antagonists. Keith, the old cowboy, was actually stronger on the technical and theoretical aspects of shooting. He was a better experimenter and created new cartridges for both handguns and rifles. But O'Conner-- the journalism professor-- had more and wider hunting experience.

It's also something of a misnomer to portray Keith as a champion of big, heavy slow bullets and O'Conner as a small, light, fast proponent. Keith liked big bore cartridges, but he also liked them fast. Given a choice, he would opt for a a .340 Weatherby over a .35 Whelen. Similarly, O'Conner was not a speed freak. He speaks most highly of moderate cartridges-.270 Win, 7mm Mauser, 30-06-- rather than the magnums that were available. He didn't drop the 7mm Mauser for the 7mm Remington magnum or the Weatherby, even though both are faster.

I'm an odd duck on the Keith-OConner feud. I started out reading O'Conner and only discovered Keith years later. I never quite bought into the big bore magnum theory. But over the last couple of years Boddington and Seyfried have made me rethink.

They don't argue that a .338 Mag is always necessary for elk. They concede that a 30-06 will usually do the trick. But the critical fact they bring up is that most big game hunters now are time-constrained. With only a few days available to hunt elk or big horn sheep or brown bear, it makes sense to grab every advantage. That includes a flatter shooting, more powerful rifle. On a 21 day annual elk hunt, you can pass on shots too tough for a 30-06 and expect to get another opportunity later. On a five day, once-in-a-lifetime hunt, one chance might be the only one you get.

Worth checking out

Over at Gunblast they have dozens of pictures from the 2004 SHOT show. A lot of new and worthwhile items seem to be coming to market. (For the record, not everything new is worthwhile-- who wants a short-barreled .500 S&W Mag?)

They also review a bunch of holsters for CCW with large revolvers and handguns.

If you ever wondered

what would happen if you shot a blackpowder .45 Colt round through a Taurus snubby, Clint Smith has pictures here.

Take one old (but nice?) guy with a new Taurus model 450 2"-barreled .45 Colt revolver, add 32 grains of old FFg black powder and what do we come up with?

What you come up with is a flame-throwing, fire-starting, butt-thumping blaster with — believe it or not — no hand or teeth jarring recoil. This combination is more than accurate enough used in the double action mode to solve any problems at acceptable self-defense ranges. And, it provides several self-defense assets.

First off, there’s — literally — fire between you and the bad guy. Basically, this combo brings fire-starting capabilities toward anyone dim-witted enough to close the ground with you. Almost as an aside, a large caliber hole is also generated in your opponent. In the case of the Taurus, which is provided with the trendy, but questionable recoil reduction holes in the barrel, I believe I have finally found a purpose for said holes. With black powder, all that black goop and efus blasts out of the vent holes and re-blacks the front sight with every compression of the trigger. Yup, it’s sort of a built-in front sight carbon-black lamp. Oh yeah, they put out a really loud thump when you touch one off too, not some wimpy bangy-bangy sound like smokeless does. And last, but not least, there’s a built-in smoke screen to hide or move behind.

Massad Ayoob on smal pistols

While I never used that particular .32 for anything serious, the day came when I was with some NYPD officers who responded to an armed robbery in progress by multiple suspects armed with sawed-off shotguns. I was not carrying. The backup gun I was graciously handed by one of the uniformed guys was a Walther PPK loaded with .380 FMJ.

Now, quite apart from that gun being totally against NYPD regs then and now, being issued a .380 is something Jeff Cooper probably has nightmares about. However, going from nothing at all to a .380 makes the little gun feel like the thunderbolt of Zeus. The perps were gone when we got there, but the little gun was comforting.

From Guns magazine.

As they say, the first rule of gunfighting is to have a gun.

Although i don't think a lot of .32s or .25s, i have to wonder-- how many civilian defensive guns uses result in failure due to inadequate caliber? By that i mean the victiim is injured or killed after she/he shoots the goblin with a small caliber round in the high torso?

The Most Politically Incorrect Pistol I can Imagine

Take one of these and then add these grips.

Something to tick off almost everyone-- prudes, feminists, gun-haters, people who hate fancy guns, Al Sharption, Jesse Jackson, the Church of the .45 ACP......

I'll second that

Coyote at the Dog Show has several posts up praising the various Wolfe shooting publications. I agree completely. I read most of the gun and hunting magazines, but the ones a really look forward to are Handloader and Rifle.

Speaking of the .348

(Well we were over at Coyote at the Dog Show). Here is an account of a Coues deer hunt using the Winchester factory load (200 grain) for those little southwestern deer. Clearly the guy was "over-gunned" but it still turned out just fine.

What's Enough Gun

Sven over at Coyote at the Dog Show has an excellent post on stopping power both for handguns and rifles.

Personally, i think the hunting situation he discusses is the perfect excuse for a .416. But then i've had a bee in my bonnet for a .416 for some time-- just can justify it for whitetails.

This, on the other hand, might be a legitimate choice-- 9.3x62.

"The NATO standard pistol is worthless"

So says Rev. Donald Sensing in a post that has drawn 67 comments and counting. Well worth a look.

To be a fly on the wall

The January Guns and Ammo has an article by Jeff Cooper on the development of the Modern Technique for Pistols.

If time machines existed, one of the trips i would make is to Southern California circa 1960. I'd go to the matches where Cooper, Weaver, et. al. invented modern combat shooting.

Reminder


I do most of my blogging here.

More on the WSSMs

A little more info on the .25 WSSM.

And Chuck Hawks takes a look at the .243 WSSM.

As can be seen from these figures, from a 24" barrel the .243 WSSM offers performance with all bullet weights equal to or slightly better than the .243 Winchester, and equal to but no better than the 6mm Remington. Most of the advantage over the standard .243 Winchester is lost, however, in the short barrels actually being supplied on Browning and Winchester hunting rifles.

If you have an itch for one of the WSSMs, you should read the whole thing.

Useful Product

I've been using one of these for the last year and they really do work. When you "holster" your rifle, the rear stock is held close to your body and doesn't swing or flop around when walking/climbing. It makes it much easier to move up and down steep or rough ground where you want two hand for balancing and holding on.

I usually use mine with the daypack attachment. That has the added advantage of leaving the rifle sling with just the right amount of slack for use as a shooting aid.

The Blessing that is Google

I read this in Cooper's Commentary

There is no rule in journalism which demands that a writer must know anything about what he writes, but still we wish that editors would make some sort of effort to tidy up what their contributors set down. For example, consider this, "With a good .30 caliber Weatherby magnum, even a mediocre shot can pick a small bird off a limb at 1200 yards." Now that is really something! This is the work of a syndicated columnist whose name I will not reveal for fear of embarrassment. But really, this sort of thing is ridiculous. The author writes, ".30 caliber Weatherby magnum," is an artifact which does not exist, yet he assumes that his readers will take him seriously. This guy pretends to be a knowledgeable shooter - which gives all of us a bad name.

and immediately wondered who the smug jerk was.

Thanks to Google i know and it really is no surprise.

New Stuff

A couple of interesting things in the latest Guns and Ammo (January 2004).

1. Remington is going to produce the 6.8 Remington Special Purpose Cartridge for the military. (James Rummel discussed this a few weeks back). The round is based on the 30 Remington and functions through the M-16. specs call for a 115 BTSP at 2,800 fps.

2. Winchester is bringing out a .25 WSSM. I don't want one of them, but i expect that this means there will be a lot of 25-06s and .257 Roberts on the used racks. And i do want one of those.

3. Hornady and Ruger are bringing out the .204 Ruger based on a necked-down .222 Remington Mag. This press release says it will drive a 32 grain V-MAX bullet at 4,225 feet per second.

Smarter than the average bear

First morning of buck season (monday), hunting the same stand that came up empty in bear season, a young black bear ran by within 25 yards of where i sat. He made it through the season and now has a buffet of deer gutpiles to fatten on before denning.......